Cohabitation

Carla (00:00.706)

Hello everybody and welcome to my Bump to Babies expert podcast today. I am thrilled to be speaking to Catherine Scoot, the head of HRJ Foreman Laws Family Department. And you are also the director, aren’t you Catherine?

Kathy Scoot (00:20.026)

That’s correct. Hello. Hi.

Carla (00:21.528)

So it’s lovely to have you here and today we’re going to be talking about a topic that I suppose it’s a situation a lot of people are in where the people are living together, they might not be married and they’ve got children as well. So we’re going to be covering a little bit about that and providing people with some answers to what that means and the implications and how they can protect themselves in that situation.

Kathy Scoot (00:48.508)

Yes, that’s right. Yeah.

Carla (00:49.624)

Perfect. So, so Katherine, would you mind sharing a little bit more about you and also about HRJ Foreman laws?

Kathy Scoot (00:59.026)

Yes. I’ve been a matrimonial solicitor. I qualified in 2002, so I’ve been doing it over 20 years. I specialise in most areas of matrimonial law and cohabitation law. I do divorce, finances, pre-nuptial agreements, children disputes.

domestic violence. I’m a specialist in finances and domestic violence accredited by resolution and I’m also a collaborative lawyer which means that I’m specially trained to deal with disputes using a round table forum to resolve them which is generally a sort of very respectful working together more holistic.

approach to settling matters rather than the traditional approaches such as court or letter writing. So those are my main areas.

Carla (02:07.864)

Well, that’s a lot as well. I imagine you see a lot of different cases because really everyone’s situation is different, isn’t it really? So although we’re talking about cohabitation today, it’s definitely worth if you need more further advice tailored to you and your own situation, definitely worth reaching out to you for that specific advice. But we are going to be covering a bit more about it anyway today because I do think it is a really important subject to cover, isn’t it?

Kathy Scoot (02:38.63)

It is, and you’re absolutely right Carla, that there’s no two cases which are identical. So if you speak to friends about their experience, yes it would be similar to yours, but most legal cases, family cases, spin on their own particular facts. So it is a good idea to get independent legal advice. Yes, you can hear our firm…

Carla (02:58.476)

Yeah, absolutely agree.

Kathy Scoot (03:04.05)

We offer a service, so if you want to come in for some initial advice, you can come in for an hour, no obligation obviously, meeting to sort of just discuss and get some, an initial feel of the steps you should take for going any further or instructing us formally. So that’s often quite useful to do.

Carla (03:23.384)

That’s… Yeah, that’s really useful because the thing is a lot of people, a lot of parents are in this situation for the first time and it’s like, well, where do we go from here? And you can end up staying in situations longer than what you want because you’re so scared of all the different things that you’re going to have to go through afterwards. So having a chat with someone like yourself would be really useful just so you know the steps involved and that there is light at the end of the tunnel as well.

Kathy Scoot (03:51.752)

Yes, and it’s also a good idea to get an idea of the legal framework so that you don’t get into hypothetical arguments with the other person, which actually, if you went to speak to somebody about it, would not be the realistic conclusion anyway. So it’s good to know you’re right first off.

Carla (04:07.948)

Yeah.

It is. And I think when you’re living with someone, you know, no one goes into it thinking that you’re going to break up. it can be a really, really hard time and emotional time, especially if one person wants to, one person doesn’t. So it’s just about kind of having that support through you guys as well. And just someone that you can actually talk to in confidence and you know, you know, everything you say is safe.

Kathy Scoot (04:37.084)

Yes, and I think also it’s a difficult time for you, the other party, and if you’ve got children as well, they can get affected by relationship break-up and often get forgotten about, not intentionally by parents, but because of the emotional hiatus at the time. So it is good to get some advice so it of calms things down rather than ramps up the temperature.

Carla (05:05.612)

Yeah, that’s a great way to put it. Yeah. Catherine then, how many people in the UK actually live together and versus I suppose how many are married? Do know that statistic?

Kathy Scoot (05:18.014)

Yes, there’s been an upward trend, as everybody’s no doubt heard in the press, with cohabitation. At the moment, I believe, from the census of 2021, there’s about 3.6 million people who are cohabiting at the moment. This has gone up, I think, from 1996, it was about 1.5 million. When you look at that against the sort of relationship status of the

rest of the population, there’s about 50 % of people are married and about 13 % who are cohabiting. So it’s a trend going upwards but one notable statistic I saw from the census is that people under the age of 30 are far less likely to be married.

It’s something like 3.7 % of the population under 30 are married. So there’s been a marked change in the younger generation’s living arrangements.

Carla (06:22.86)

Why do you think that is, Katherine? Why do you think that’s change?

Kathy Scoot (06:26.224)

I think it’s very difficult to pinpoint it to one particular thing. Obviously back in the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, living together with somebody who you weren’t married to was a sort of social taboo. You’re living in sin. That has obviously completely changed now and cohabiting is the norm. There’s all sorts of other factors.

Living together with somebody is cheaper than getting married. The cost of marriage in the UK I think is probably about £20,000 now. People are trying to get onto the housing ladder. Deposits are expensive, so spending £20,000 on getting married is going to put a big dent in your deposit. I think there’s other things. Women are now working more.

and are independent. So the need to get married or getting married later, having children later is a trend as well because they’re focusing on their careers. Perhaps people have also seen parents getting divorced. I think the most first marriages, the divorce rate’s about 42 % at the moment. There’s probably a whole ream of other factors, but…

I think those are some of the considerations that people have now. Yeah, and they don’t want the state necessarily either interfering in their own personal arrangements. And if you’re cohabiting with somebody and it’s not working, you don’t have to go to see, well, you don’t have to go through the whole legal rigmarole of getting divorced. It’s an easier, it’s an easier get out. Yes.

Carla (07:57.869)

Yeah.

Carla (08:16.578)

Yeah, it almost removes that step.

think as well, I think during lockdown it seems, you know when we had to kind of be on our own or be in a bubble and I think that probably either forced people together or forced them apart in some way. So some people have may found themselves living with a partner basically because of that situation a while ago and maybe not progressing to getting married at this stage. But it’s so expensive isn’t it to get married? mean mine.

Kathy Scoot (08:29.832)

Bye.

Kathy Scoot (08:41.725)

Bye.

Kathy Scoot (08:49.437)

Yes.

Carla (08:50.702)

was around £20,000, honestly, and luckily, I mean, I am still married at the moment, happily, today. But I think for me, there’s a lot of people that came to the wedding, we don’t really see much more now we’ve got children and you know, you can end up spending a fortune and it’s just, you know, that could have gone towards a deposit for a house or something like that. yeah, things are definitely changing, aren’t they?

Kathy Scoot (08:53.907)

Yes.

Kathy Scoot (09:18.802)

Yes, yes. I often say to family, weddings are nice for grandmas and great aunts. They love them. They’re a romantic occasion. They get to meet up with all their family. And yeah, I suppose there’s an attraction to getting married. There’s a romance to it and having a particular person who you’ve promised to spend the rest of your life with.

Carla (09:29.326)

Yeah, yeah, they do. They do.

Kathy Scoot (09:48.222)

That’s why there’s attraction. But I suppose if you looked at it and think, well, there’s just statistic that 42 % of weddings and marriages end in divorce, you might think twice about it. But as you said at the start of this meeting, nobody ever enters into a relationship or a marriage thinking the worst that they’re going to break up. Otherwise people get married at all or live with anyone. No.

Carla (10:10.166)

No, no. Well, you wouldn’t spend that money would you? I’d treat myself with all that money instead of a wedding. So no, I know and that’s the thing, know, situations do change and I think when you’re a parent especially, you change as well and your partner might change as well and it’s just a case of really kind of, it’s really important that you’re happy and obviously your children and your partner as well because you know, living together can be tough sometimes but

Kathy Scoot (10:17.564)

Yeah.

Carla (10:40.14)

Yeah, with the marriage and obviously if you are married and you split with your partner, you go through the divorce and then the child arrangements and all of that thing. And that’s saying, you know, if it’s not kind of, you know, if everyone’s on good terms, it can be quite straightforward, I imagine. But when there is a house that you’re living in and you aren’t married, I mean, what?

Kathy Scoot (10:41.416)

Thank you.

Kathy Scoot (11:00.574)

Thank

Carla (11:07.07)

is the situation. Obviously, I know you can only go off, you know, every person’s situation is different, but what protection have you got around the home and how, what’s the difference, I guess, legally, really?

Kathy Scoot (11:21.822)

Yes, the difference between the law governing divorce and cohabitation is stark. The law in relation to divorce is pretty well developed over the last 30 or 40 years. As we’ve touched on, cohabitation is increasing, but it is nowhere near the same amount of people as married couples.

and it isn’t fully developed yet. There’s a lot of misconceptions about people’s rights as cohabitants. One phrase which gets brandished about regularly is, I’m a common law wife or I’m a common law husband. That doesn’t mean anything. It’s an old medieval term where back in the day where there were no religious ceremonies or everything, you could just say, you’re my husband or you’re my wife. But that doesn’t hold any…

water. I think people sometimes hear that in other jurisdictions you do develop rights if you’ve lived with somebody for a certain number of years but that is absolutely not the case here. So the situation is if you’re a cohabitant if you own something in your name it’s yours, if the other person owns something in their name it’s theirs, anything you hold jointly

is usually 50-50 unless you specify the shares.

Carla (12:54.936)

Right.

Kathy Scoot (12:55.686)

That is the starting point and it’s quite difficult to change that presumption from that and expensive. So if we take the example of a house, you decide that you’re going to buy a house together.

Carla (13:13.367)

Mm.

Kathy Scoot (13:18.864)

It may be that one of you is putting in more money than the other person. Now, as we’ve said, it always depends on a person’s situation at the time. If they’ve got children, they earning, are they planning on having children, or whatever. But if somebody has got a house they’re buying and the other person’s putting money into the house, and the house…

is in that person’s, the other person’s sole name, even if you’ve put money in. That’s not particularly safe position to be in. You should always, if you’re putting money into the house, ask for it to be put in joint names. And if it’s a different percentage share, specify those percentages. Now, there’s two ways of doing that. When you buy a house at the time you purchase it,

there’s a transfer deed and there’s a box on there, two boxes, which say, do you want to own the property in sole names or do you want to own it in joint names or as joint names as tenants in common? So if you put sole name, it’s obviously in that person’s name. If it’s in joint names, it means that you both own the house and the presumption is it’s 50 % each.

And if one of you dies, the other person automatically inherits the other’s half. If you have it in tenants in common, it’s 50-50 unless you specify. But as I say, if you’ve put in different amounts of money, you may want to also put in the percentage shares. So that’s the conveyancing process. So when you’re buying the house, there’s a transfer date and you need to ensure that you take advice as to how those boxes are completed.

The other thing you can do if you want a little bit more detail about your living arrangements and how those are specified is you can enter into what’s known as a cohabitation agreement with the person as well. So you can put in there details about paying bills, mortgage payments, what happens if one of you stops working, if you want to sell the house. So it just gives more of a framework.

Kathy Scoot (15:48.858)

If you do not do that, you are then left at the mercy of the cohabitation law in this country, which I say isn’t particularly well developed. If you buy a house and you’ve put money in there and it’s in the other person’s name, there are ways in which you can still ask the court to define, declare your interest. But those ways are limited.

There’s a House of Lords case, Lloyds Bank v Rosse, which says that unless you put money towards the purchase price or the mortgage payments, direct money towards the mortgage payments, or if you’ve paid for an extension, for example, then it can be inferred that you are able to have a right to part of the house.

but you certainly wouldn’t want to leave that to chance. You’re much better at the outset to have got that noted down clearly. And if somebody won’t do that, that should ring alarm bells.

Carla (16:57.006)

Mmm.

Carla (17:01.772)

Yeah, yeah, it’s about protecting yourself and it’s protecting each other really. It’s not just protecting yourself, it’s making sure when you’re going in, you know, you’re in it together and you’re making sure you’re both okay and you’re going to come out of this okay as well.

Kathy Scoot (17:03.336)

Say hi.

Kathy Scoot (17:10.856)

Mm-hmm.

Kathy Scoot (17:18.002)

Yes, yes.

When I said at the outset, what yours is yours and what’s mine is mine, that’s very much the starting position in the case. so that you’re aware if you were getting divorced, however, that’s not the case. You can make claims against parties’ assets which aren’t in their, which aren’t in, which are in their sole names. So, for example, a person’s pension. You can’t do that if you’re a cohabitant.

If you’re a spouse, however, it all goes into the pot to be divided according to certain factors. If you’re a cohabitant as well, you can’t make a claim against somebody’s income. So what’s known as spousal maintenance, you can only ask for child maintenance. And people just do not realize that just because as say, you’ve lived with somebody for

Carla (17:55.63)

Right! I didn’t realize that. Yeah!

Kathy Scoot (18:17.882)

a long time. There’s another reported case where a lady lived with her partner for 31 years. They’d got two children together. They’d got houses and things that were in his name. And even though she’d looked after the children and helped him in his business because they were in his name.

she wasn’t able to touch them.

So that is something to be taken into account. Get things straight at the start would be my advice if you’re a cohabitant. And bear in mind, if it’s in somebody’s sole name, you need to be very careful what funds of yours, if any, you want to put into that particular asset.

Carla (19:08.646)

Yeah, yeah, that’s great advice. And you can help with those, can you? You offer that as a service. Right, right.

Kathy Scoot (19:14.982)

We do, yes. Yes, we draft cohabitation agreements. We’ve also got a conveyancing department. So as I was saying about the transfer, did the boxes you tick on the document when you buy the house as its own sole names, tenants in common or in joint names, you will be advised about that at the time as well. Yeah.

Carla (19:38.716)

Right, yeah, I mean there’s so much to it, there’s so many different situations out there, aren’t there? Because, I mean, obviously, I know you guys will be able to help with Will’s as well, which is a separate side of things, but I mean, even, I’ve known other scenarios where, you know, someone’s still married, but they are living with someone else, everything’s fine, but that person has passed away, and unless they’ve got this agreement in place, the ex-partner, even though…

Kathy Scoot (19:49.726)

Good luck.

Carla (20:06.128)

you know, they’re not together anymore, can actually come in and take things. I mean, it’s a totally different situation, but it’s just protecting yourself, isn’t it really? And making sure that you’re okay, but also your family as well is okay.

Kathy Scoot (20:17.223)

is.

Yes, yes, that’s definitely right. Yes, sort things out at the start and be clear as to what everybody’s intentions are and have that conversation. Yes.

Carla (20:31.666)

Yeah, and what can be a grey area sometimes I find is a lot of the time it’s mums taking the maternity leave and then obviously the pay decree, you know, you’ve got like for a lot of parents statutory maternity pay which I think is around £150 now a week and it’s quite a drop and then sometimes what can happen is the partner then says right okay well I’ll pay more of this and I’ll pay

Kathy Scoot (20:39.89)

Yes.

Kathy Scoot (20:49.228)

Carla (20:57.604)

and now you’re kind of getting through each day on maternity pay, which can be quite tricky for some people. And then when it comes to it, if you did have a relationship breakdown, then there’s been situations where some of parents on My Bumped Baby have been in situations where their partner has said, well, you’ve not contributed to the property for this amount of time, so I should be entitled to…

Kathy Scoot (21:01.426)

And.

Carla (21:24.324)

more. mean it’s just it’s those scenarios as well that you’re protecting yourself from in the future.

Kathy Scoot (21:32.05)

And that’s why I say at the start, you need to be very clear about how that property is held. And once that’s done, it’s very difficult to change that. Yes.

Carla (21:39.28)

Yeah, yeah, re-

Carla (21:43.622)

That’s great, yeah, yeah, that’s it. So definitely reaching out to you on that. So with regards to someone that wouldn’t have a claim on the property at all, for that then, that also what you do can protect basically that from happening in the future. Like if they split up, the two people living together split up, then that agreement that you put in place at HRJ,

that can support those parents and make sure that they can, you know, both separate but on a, in a situation where they, I suppose, have, have a shared, it’s hard to get the words out but, but a shared equity if you like, if you know what I mean.

Kathy Scoot (22:27.166)

Yes, absolutely. If the house is in joint names and they split up, yes, it will be defined as to how it was owned to begin with. As I say, it’s very front-loaded cohabitation. If it’s a lady, for example, who

Carla (22:38.268)

Yeah.

Kathy Scoot (22:57.348)

doesn’t have the house in joint names and it’s in the man’s sole name, that is going to be more difficult as I’ve already described because that doesn’t give you a share. You don’t have a share because you’ve lived with them for a certain period of time or you’ve got children. Only if you’ve put money in towards the mortgage, an extension or towards the purchase price,

Carla (23:07.57)

Hmm

Kathy Scoot (23:26.76)

do you have more of a chance to be able to fight that through the courts if necessary to make your claim? And that’s not a foregone conclusion. So there are other ways. Sorry.

Carla (23:33.306)

Yeah.

Carla (23:38.33)

Yeah, yeah. What about… sorry, what about then if someone experienced domestic violence then? Does that change things or not?

Kathy Scoot (23:50.846)

Domestic violence doesn’t change the ownership of the house. It depends obviously the circumstances of what that is. you can, the law on domestic violence does provide obviously protection to victims. So your marital status in relation to that is less important.

You could, if you needed to, get an order even if the house isn’t in your name at all. If there has been domestic violence, potentially you can apply for an order for the perpetrator to leave the house for a certain period of time to allow for things to calm down. Because you don’t have ownership of the house, the order would need to include that you’re able to stay in the house.

for that amount of time, but afterwards usually six months and it can be extended. But after that amount of time, then you’re still in the position where you need to resolve what’s happening. And if you don’t have any rights to the house, you don’t have any rights to the house full stop. It’s quite hard and fast. Potentially,

Carla (25:07.11)

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

Kathy Scoot (25:14.95)

This is a complex area of law co-publishation as you’re probably working out from speaking to me, but there is the potential that if there’s sufficient funds there, and this is often used with more wealthy parties to make claim under what’s known as Schedule 1 of the Children Act for certain orders, interim orders, to help with

Carla (25:17.71)

Yes of course, course everyone’s situation is different.

Kathy Scoot (25:45.158)

lump sums for children while they’re up or potentially for you to be able to stay in the house until the children have reached their sort majority age 18. But then that house would then generally get passed back to the person who owned it. But that piece of legislation is not used frequently and it’s generally the sort of preserve of the multimillionaires who use that.

Carla (26:12.154)

Yeah, yeah. So, I mean…

Kathy Scoot (26:13.598)

So if you do find yourself in that position, it is best to come in and get some advice because as say, it’s such a complex area of law. So we can look at the ownership of the house, what the intentions were of the people, the parties who bought it at the time, what the financial situation is, so that you can then get some detailed targeted legal advice specifically for you.

Carla (26:38.802)

Yeah, yeah and it’s tricky because when you decide to separate living together or married it’s deciding who’s going to stay there, who’s going, how are we going to manage the bills. There’s so many things to think about isn’t there? So having that conversation again right at the beginning before you live together or early days is really so important because later down the line it just really does protect you both.

Kathy Scoot (26:52.647)

Yes.

Kathy Scoot (27:05.414)

Yes, yes it does. The court’s a pretty blunt instrument with cohabitation as well. Unlike marriage, there’s a restricted number of orders that they’re only able to make. So they can declare a person’s interest in the house, so they can say, yes, you do own XML. But they can’t change that share. They can only declare what it is.

Then they can, if you can’t decide whether you’re going to sell the house or not, you can’t come to an agreement between the two of you, they can make an order for sale. They can’t order a transfer though, which is completely different to the law if you’re married and you’re getting divorced. good to have it all written down to begin with to avoid those problems and a cohabitation agreement can say in there.

Carla (27:52.463)

Yeah.

Kathy Scoot (28:01.116)

what will happen if the relationship breaks down, what are the options we can use, do we transfer, allow the other person to buy them out, stay in the house for a while, that can all be included in the agreement. If there’s no agreement, it’s never a good idea to race off to court. I think your first protocol would probably be to try and mediate a settlement because court proceedings are.

lengthy, expensive, very stressful. And another thing you need to bear in mind that cohabitation disputes at court, if you lose potentially you have to pay the winners costs which can run to thousands of pounds.

Carla (28:45.518)

Wow, wow. So yes, so if you’re listening to this and you are living together, definitely, definitely get that in place. And then like you said, really, your partner should be understanding, hopefully, with the situation because you’re just protecting both of you for this. So obviously, I know a lot of children are born outside of marriage, but do you have a statistic on that for how many that is?

Kathy Scoot (28:49.489)

Yes!

Kathy Scoot (29:00.86)

Yes.

Kathy Scoot (29:11.195)

Yes, I think.

Round 46%, I believe, at the moment. That’s the number who are born outside of marriage. Often it is still the case that having children is sometimes a catalyst for parents to then get married afterwards. that’s a huge difference. Yes, exactly. That’s a huge difference to what it was 50-odd years ago.

Carla (29:18.041)

Yes, yes.

Carla (29:23.909)

Wow.

Carla (29:31.474)

Hmm… If you load it afterwards.

Kathy Scoot (29:43.504)

you know, the comment about living in sin and illegitimate children, I mean, that’s all gone now. But yes, there’s a lot of children who are now born to cohabiting parents rather than married parents.

Carla (29:57.776)

Yeah and are the parental rights the same then? You know after we’ve discussed obviously the protecting yourself, living together, we’re now thinking about parental rights because obviously you’ve got this lovely child or children who love you both and you’re great parents and you want to do it together but it’s quite difficult really for some parents they’ve thought of you know

Kathy Scoot (30:07.229)

Yes!

Kathy Scoot (30:16.018)

Yes.

Carla (30:25.43)

one parent having them 50 % of the time just really upsets them, which you can understand, can’t you? You want your children around you. So how does it work when it comes to parental rights then after a relationship breakdown?

Kathy Scoot (30:40.488)

Yes. Well, everybody would probably be pleased to hear that the parental rights is far less stark to divorce forms because there’s this general upward trend which has been of children born to cohabitants. So the law is better developed in relation to that. any arrangements in relation to children is governed by the Children Act.

Carla (30:48.728)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kathy Scoot (31:09.534)

Situation is, is that if your cohabitants and you have a child together, if both of the parents’ names are on the children’s birth certificate, both of you automatically have what’s known as parental responsibility. Now, parental responsibility is sort of an equal right in relation to important matters for children. So there’s…

They have a right in medical treatment, education, religion, child’s surname can’t be changed. So all the important sort of milestones for a child, both of you have an equal say in relation to that. And if you both got parental responsibility, whether you’re married or not is irrelevant. The courts, they’re looking at orders for children, they’re looking at

what’s in the best interest of the child. If you’re a cohabitant and you’re not on your son or daughter’s birth certificate, you can agree with the other parent that later on down the line, that you will have a parental responsibility agreement. If that parent won’t agree to that, you can apply to the court for a parental responsibility order.

If there’s an order that the child lives with you, then that also gives you parental responsibility as part of that child arrangements order.

Carla (32:46.438)

There’s so much to it, isn’t there? Because it’s obviously the breakdown of the relationship is one part, but everything afterwards, it’s like having that support of you guys. You know, you need that, don’t you, with all this? It’s a minefield. It really is. So, sorry.

Kathy Scoot (32:49.043)

Yes.

Kathy Scoot (32:54.962)

Mm-hmm.

Kathy Scoot (33:00.243)

Yes.

Kathy Scoot (33:03.9)

Yes, and it is difficult for people who are separating to sometimes put that into one box and their children into another and focus on their children and the effect that’s having on them and ensure that they’re looking at their child’s best interest and how their behaviour

comes across to the child as well. So if there are disputes about children, it is much better to try and talk them through, come to a compromise, go to mediation, go and see a family therapist, whatever which way to try and resolve things so that you don’t have an awful relationship going forward. I’ve had people say to me who’ve cohabitants,

Well, at least I didn’t marry him or her. And you say to them, yes, but you’ve got young children. You are going to have to work with that person for the next 16, 17 years. And you’re going to need to compromise and communicate with them for your children’s sake. yes, children and cohabitation, as I say, the law’s far less dark.

Carla (34:07.026)

Yeah.

Carla (34:16.306)

you

Carla (34:24.423)

Yeah.

Kathy Scoot (34:31.42)

children act and they are looking at what’s in the best interest for the child.

Carla (34:36.57)

Yeah and that’s really that’s what’s important isn’t it you know with the children want them to be happy and you know it’s hard for them during this situation as well. So in regards to child maintenance obviously we’ve already touched on the spouse maintenance is it called spousal maintenance? So what is child maintenance then and how does that work when your relationship ends with your

Kathy Scoot (34:47.634)

Yes.

Kathy Scoot (34:56.996)

It is, yes.

Kathy Scoot (35:01.939)

Yes.

Carla (35:06.691)

partner.

Kathy Scoot (35:07.72)

Yes. child maintenance is not really governed by the courts at all. That’s well in the remit of the child support agency, Child Maintenance Service. Anybody who wants to investigate this can go onto their website. They’ve got a calculator you can use to calculate the amount of maintenance.

person who generally has less than 50 % care of the child should be paying. And it’s worked out on the number of nights per year that the, what they call the non-resident parent has the child staying with them. And as I say, it’s worked out on a percentage of their income. If you have very wealthy parents,

Carla (36:00.145)

Yeah.

Kathy Scoot (36:03.453)

child support agency has a ceiling, I think it’s about £3,000 a week, and then the courts can potentially, if required, top that up. But for most people, there’s very few who are lucky enough to earn that amount generally day to day, it’s squarely within the child support agency to make that calculation.

Carla (36:15.854)

Mm, mm.

Kathy Scoot (36:31.014)

and they are able to enforce it if the person isn’t paying by a variety of means.

Carla (36:38.288)

Yeah, yeah, I know quite a few parents do struggle with like who’s going to have the children most of the time and things like that as well. Obviously that’s a totally different scenario as well. if they are having the child, if they’ve agreed 50 % of the child, it sounds so wrong that, but you know what I mean, 50 % of the time. Does that mean then that they’d be equal in terms of payments?

Kathy Scoot (36:46.909)

You

Yes.

Kathy Scoot (36:55.71)

Mm-hmm.

Kathy Scoot (37:00.54)

Yes.

Carla (37:07.96)

or is that a totally different… Right.

Kathy Scoot (37:08.146)

That’s a gray area that you would think. Yes, but occasionally that’s not the case. And actually, it’s very difficult to say that a person is having a child exactly 50 percent of the whole year. So, yes, sometimes that 50 percent should cancel it out, but it doesn’t always is all I would say. And the

Child support agency, as I say, they govern this area. that would be down to them. I have had clients who have their children 50 % of the time or believe that they have them more than 50 % of the time. And the other parent approaches the child maintenance service, child support agency, and they have made an assessment that person still has to pay, which they then have to go through and sort of

argue through their appeal process. So, yeah.

Carla (38:09.938)

Hmm, hmm. Yeah, there’s lots to it. There’s so much, it’s like, But yeah, no, it does all make sense really. I think definitely what you said at the beginning, if you can always just kind of look at it from the beginning part, protect yourself and then it becomes easier further down the line. Not that we wanna think about separating, but it does happen. So, so.

Kathy Scoot (38:27.774)

Mm-hmm.

Kathy Scoot (38:36.668)

It does and people need to be realistic about that and protect their own trust. Yes. Yes, I mean, those are the people who the statistic of about 42%, that’s the divorce rate. I don’t know what the percentage is because of cohabiting parties who separate are because it probably isn’t recorded the same way because there’s no divorce petition.

Carla (38:40.014)

Yeah, I mean the percentage is quite high really of the amount of people that do separate, so…

Carla (38:53.242)

Hmm.

Kathy Scoot (39:06.238)

to judge that against. When I was looking at some of these statistics about this, I found one, I don’t know how true this is, but on a site which said that if you cohabit with somebody and then get married, the chances of getting divorced afterwards, something like 48 % higher. Yes, I found that surprising. Yes, because you would have thought you’d know what you’re getting into.

Carla (39:28.402)

my goodness, I would have thought it’d the other way around. Yeah!

Kathy Scoot (39:35.806)

But I would say from my own practice, I’ve had a number of people who’ve lived together for a very long time and then have got married and then have got divorced a short time after that. It’s almost like sometimes doing that is sort of make or break for a relationship. But I found that, I did find that surprising even so.

Carla (39:35.844)

Yeah. Yeah, that’s true.

Carla (39:58.898)

Yeah, yeah, it’s funny.

Yeah, yeah, it’s almost like a few years ago it was the other way around, wasn’t it? Like getting married, then living together. And now it’s, yeah, it seems to be a bit more living together. I mean, with my partner, we lived together first just so I couldn’t know if he got annoyed me or not, you know, like so. And then I thought, yeah, okay, I’ll marry you then. But.

Kathy Scoot (40:11.432)

Yes.

Kathy Scoot (40:21.086)

Yes.

Yes, they often say you never know someone until you’ve lived with them.

Carla (40:29.746)

No, that’s absolutely true. Yeah. So what are the significant disadvantages then to cohabitation? If you just summarise those for us, I think that would be really helpful.

Kathy Scoot (40:41.906)

Yes, I think there’s often a significant disadvantage to cohabitation if you are the financially weaker person in a relationship and if you are the person who may be, as you’ve suggested, you have time off work to look after the children because there are limits as to what you can claim from the other person as we’ve discussed.

It is only the joint assets and your joint names really. As I said, you can’t apply for spouse or maintenance because you’re not a spouse. You can’t claim other assets owned by the other person, for example, pensions, or if they’ve got other properties, you can’t claim against their business, as you can if you are a spouse and you’re getting divorced.

On the flip side, that can be advantageous to a person who is financially stronger because they know that their assets are pretty much safeguarded and that they can’t make a claim. And if the relationship is going badly, it is easier to step out of it than it is if you’re married to somebody.

Carla (42:06.854)

Yeah, yeah. Right, gosh, there’s so many things, honestly. So, also, as well as the cohabitation agreement that we discussed, wills is another thing that obviously, we’re not gonna go into too much detail today, but that would be quite a good topic to cover because, again, that’s protecting yourself, isn’t it?

Kathy Scoot (42:12.698)

Yes. Yes.

Kathy Scoot (42:17.267)

Yeah.

Kathy Scoot (42:22.984)

Thank you.

Kathy Scoot (42:27.964)

Yes, and if you own the property in percentage shares, so it’s tenants in common, you would want to have a will to say if you’re not, because it doesn’t automatically pass because it’s tenants in common rather than joint tenants, who you’re leaving the rest of the property to.

Carla (42:37.116)

Mm.

Carla (42:48.56)

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, does.

Kathy Scoot (42:49.606)

So there’s no question my lads. So yes, making a will is always a good idea whether you’re happily married, happily cohabiting, single person, parent, it’s an important document to have because it takes away the guesswork.

Carla (43:05.094)

Yeah, yeah.

Definitely, definitely. So, Katherine, thank you so much. You’ve given us so much food for thought and so much to think about and so much great advice as well. So I really appreciate that. Would you mind just sharing a little bit again about how you can help our audience? Because it’s not just this side of things you can help with. You can help with so much more. So just a reminder on that as well, if that’s okay.

Kathy Scoot (43:32.956)

Yes, so I work in the matrimonial department. I do divorce, children, finances, pre-nuptial agreements, cohabitation obviously, and domestic violence. But the firm offers a whole range of services so they can do wills, conveyancing, commercial property, company commercial work. So we offer a full

legal service here and yes we’ve got offices here in Hitch in Welland Garden City and in Harlow.

Carla (44:12.21)

That’s amazing because when you’re going through this as well and I won’t go on this podcast has lasted long enough so apologies about that. But what I would say is when you are going through separation there’s so many different things to consider and having a company that offers you know everything under one roof sometimes can be just a bit easier than being passed from pillar to post so.

Kathy Scoot (44:18.59)

I’m

Kathy Scoot (44:35.375)

It can. Yes, and communication between fear and this is often useful as well. And it can cut down, you know, time and stress and having to go through it all and explain it. Yes.

Carla (44:46.684)

Brilliant. Well, I will put all of Catherine’s links underneath this podcast. So if you want to make contact with her directly, please do, you know, speak to her. And like you said, you’ve got that hour as well that you can book in for. So thank you so much, Catherine, for everything today. Thank you.

Kathy Scoot (45:01.246)

That’s right.

Thank you, Carla. Thank you.