Sex & Relationships

MyBump2Baby Expert Podcast

Featuring

  • Sex & Relationships

In this conversation, Carla and Jennifer McKenzie discuss the topic of sex after having children. Jennifer, a holistic coach and somatic therapist, shares her personal experiences as a mother of four and provides insights into the challenges and changes that can occur in relationships and body image after childbirth. They discuss the importance of communication, self-discovery, and finding time for intimacy in maintaining a healthy sexual relationship. Jennifer also introduces her company, Luna Spirit Wellbeing, and explains how she helps individuals reconnect with themselves and others through somatic coaching and energy healing.

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Featuring expert Jennifer Mckenzie Www.lunarspiritwellbeing.com

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Carla (00:00.642)
So hello Jennifer and welcome to my podcast. I’m really looking forward to talking to you today about sex after children. So hello, welcome. Would you mind sharing a little bit about you?

Jennifer McKenzie (00:12.196)
and… I’m right.

Okay, so I’m Jennifer McKenzie. First of all, I’m a mum of four. I have four beautiful humans that I’ve brought into the world, two are adults now and two are 10 and 12. And I am a holistic coach and a somatic therapist. And the main bulk of what I do on a day-to-day basis within my business, Lunar Spirit Wellbeing,

is that I help people rediscover themselves. I work a lot on self-discovery, I work a lot with the healing trauma from the body and helping people to shed the past, to shed those layers of conditioning, help them to understand that their limiting beliefs are not their beliefs and to move forward from difficult situations.

Carla (01:13.006)
Definitely that that’s really interesting. So a mum of four firstly I just want to give you a clap because I Honestly when I went from what one to two actually wasn’t as bad as what I thought but going from zero to one for me I was like, oh my goodness. I like pictured no maternity leave I’ll be strolling down the street hair all okay, cuz I’ve got you know all the time in the world But actually I was definitely a mum born hair in

Jennifer McKenzie (01:18.685)
Thank you.

Carla (01:40.118)
you know, that kind of thing, grease ball, probably a bit of snot in there, a bit of sick, you know, the usual. And… Yeah, go on.

Jennifer McKenzie (01:44.489)
Yeah, absolutely. I remember, sorry, I just, before you said that, I’ve just remembered when my first born, who’s now, she’s gonna be 22 this year, so I just got back in my nice jeans, right, so I was getting her ready as a baby to go out and she projectile pooed all down me. That is just, you know, that’s typical, you start feeling yourself again, you’re like, oh yeah.

Carla (02:09.9)
Oh yeah!

Jennifer McKenzie (02:10.757)
I’m gonna go back out, I’m looking fly in my nice jeans again and then no, baby’s got another idea. Shit, I’m done, yeah. Shit.

Carla (02:14.923)
Yeah.

Carla (02:19.651)
Oh, do you know, I know, do you know, recently actually, this, sorry, I’m completely going off tangent, but recently I took my little one, went out for a meal at a restaurant with family that would not seem for a very long time, and she just decided diarrhea was coming out, it was coming out. So anyway, that was fine, took it to the bathroom and I could tell it was a messy one. Anyway, it was all over her, all over her clothes.

then all over the taps, then all over the actual room. I just didn’t know what to do. She had no clothes, I had to bring her out. Oh, it was hell. Anyway, it’s traumatic, that actually. It reminds me, oh yeah, I can still smell it, actually. So, today we wanna talk a bit about sex after children, because I do think it’s something that people want to hear other stories around, but then they’re quite shy to share it themselves and think, oh, is what I’m going through normal, and is it not?

Jennifer McKenzie (02:56.505)
Yeah.

Carla (03:16.31)
What’s your take on, on sex after relationships?

Jennifer McKenzie (03:20.409)
I mean, I’ve always had a really high sex drive and I’m very open about talking about these sorts of things and I don’t, you know, no holds barred for me. So. But what I would say is how I felt the first time around is that your body changes so much. You know, I was pregnant at 19 and I was running two pubs.

Carla (03:30.958)
Oh same here, same here!

Jennifer McKenzie (03:50.529)
and we had a pretty active life, a really active social life and an active sex life. I mean we were quite experimental and things like that and it was fun and we had a good time. But then you know you threw out pregnancy, like with my first it was like, is it going to hurt the baby and all this stuff and no it doesn’t.

But then afterwards, obviously, you, your, your body changes so much and I was breastfeeding as well. So there wasn’t really that much room for it, like early on. So I was breastfeeding her and my body had changed. I didn’t have stitches, but it, you know, everything’s a bit sore down there for quite a long time.

after you’ve had a child. So for me it was, I’m trying to cast my mind back you know, suddenly got a mind blank. But I think it was more of like a confidence about my body that changed and it was, well are they going to still find me attractive if

Carla (04:55.739)
No, it feels like years ago.

Yeah.

Jennifer McKenzie (05:16.981)
you know, after I’ve had a baby, after I’ve got loose skin and some stretch marks and my body shape has changed, is my partner still going to find me attractive? When am I going to find time? You know, you’ve got a, I had a baby that woke up during the night, like most little babies do. And I think the kind of the first six months was more about adjusting to having

Carla (05:38.498)
Yeah.

Jennifer McKenzie (05:45.297)
the baby and sex and that was put on a back burner. But what you can, you know, what you can still have is that intimacy and you can still have that connection but maybe not like through intercourse, through different ways, you know, like through sharing some more time together like, you know, kissing, cuddling and things like that. And for me it was like well…

if I’m not kind of, if that’s not happening in my relationship, is my partner gonna go elsewhere? You know, are they gonna get bored? Because it’s not just a change for one parent, it’s a change in the whole dynamic of that relationship.

Carla (06:31.978)
And there’s no going back either, is there? It’s not like, all right, actually, let’s put the baby back in. So, yeah, so it’s a change, and it’s this change that is a long-term change, isn’t it?

Jennifer McKenzie (06:36.333)
Yes. Yeah.

Jennifer McKenzie (06:45.553)
Yeah, and I think it looks different to each relationship. And for me, so the second time around was a lot different because I was sort of more on my own. And so, you know, sex was just, it was not even in the equation. And I then went back to work. So I had two girls under…

five, one was five and one was like two. So, and then I was working full time as well. So it, and I was single. So it was a few and far between if I got lucky on a date or something. It was a few and far between.

Carla (07:25.079)
Yeah.

Carla (07:28.463)
Yeah!

Carla (07:35.982)
I know what you mean. Yeah, and then obviously there’s other things that you can use to kind of, you know, get yourself going, if you know what I mean, in that department. But with the sex, I find that it is a lot. A lot of mums I speak to tend to be quite insecure after, like what you mentioned.

Jennifer McKenzie (07:47.078)
Yeah.

Carla (07:58.458)
And also a bit nervous about actually even the first time of going and doing it. It’s scary, isn’t it? And it’s like, oh will it be the same? Will it not? And you could start to second-guess and also you’ve got less time to take care of you haven’t you when you’ve got a baby? So then you sometimes might not feel as sexy and as good as you felt before.

Jennifer McKenzie (08:04.794)
Yeah.

Jennifer McKenzie (08:17.669)
Yeah. So you know, your partner’s coming in, say like, you know, a heterosexual relationship, right? Your partner’s coming in from work and the nor right. I don’t want to standardize here, but most relationships, the majority of relationships are male, female, heterosexual relationships. And it falls on the woman most of the time to take on majority of the child care and the house care. So.

if you’re in one of these relationships where suddenly you feel like you have another child because you’re picking up after your partner and stuff like that as well, where’s the desire? Where’s the sexual attraction there? And if you’re at the end, when they get home, like you said, you’ve got your hair up in a bun and you’ve got the designer sick patch down the shoulder, you’re not going to feel

attractive are you? So what…

Carla (09:14.862)
And when you’ve been picking up their crap all day as well, you probably hate them a little bit as well when they come home.

Jennifer McKenzie (09:20.689)
you start to build resentment towards them. And if they just go, right, I remember like my partner at the time, it would be like going to work and coming back. And then it would be like, I’m just gonna pop out to the pub. I’m like, what’s good, sorry, what? Sorry, what? You know, not that I’m a controlling person, but it’s like, well, it would fall on me to be like, well, I need to arrange childcare. I need to ask to go to the shop now.

Carla (09:36.706)
Oh, yeah.

Jennifer McKenzie (09:50.349)
or something and it’s like suddenly I felt like I had the weight of all this responsibility on my shoulders and it really did like change my life so much especially when I had the two and I had post-natal depression after my second and I’ve been through some I’ve been through a horrible breakup and everything as well so and I didn’t give my child myself

Carla (09:51.851)
Yeah.

Jennifer McKenzie (10:19.569)
chance to heal from that. And I started drinking a lot. I started drinking a lot. So I was working like a full time job in corporate sales. So I had to be on the ball. It was stressful. I had targets to meet. I had quite a low basic and then it was mostly commission based. So if I didn’t perform I didn’t get enough money and stuff like that. So I had all those stresses.

Jennifer McKenzie (10:50.101)
I used to get home, put the kids to bed and I’d crack open the wine. Because I, you know, and it was… And then I’d go on like dating sites or whatever. Because I was craving connection. I was craving connection and it’s… That’s one thing that can happen like when you have children and even if you are in a relationship or whether you’re single, you…

One of our basic needs is connection, is another human touch, another human connection, another adult to talk to. And it can feel quite lonely, even if you are in that relationship, because you’re so caught up with, got to do this, got to do that, got to sort this out, got to sort that out. And then where does that time come for you and your partner, or you as a human being, to have that connection?

and have that physical touch and that time to just be you because our roles change so much. It’s like we put our mum hat on, we put our work hat on, we put our partner hat on and it’s like, you know, where does the time come for me to just be Jen? That’s so, so important. When I’m working with people, I really, really like say this is so important to have.

Carla (12:04.117)
Yeah.

Jennifer McKenzie (12:14.737)
that time, whatever your situation is, to have that time where you spend just with yourself and connecting with yourself. And I see a lot of people and even I lost myself, like I lost myself completely.

Carla (12:28.758)
I did. Yeah, first time around I had postnatal depression because my son, he came early and it really honestly traumatized me. The whole thing traumatized me. Even now when I think about it, I think, oh, it still is like, I mean, the second time around was a lot of a lot nicer experience, but it’s, you feel just, I mean, I felt really lonely during maternity leave, even though my husband is lovely and-

Jennifer McKenzie (12:36.649)
Thank you.

Carla (12:54.694)
but he was at work all day and I just had this baby, this baby there that like you know that I was so down around and I didn’t know if I was doing it right and then I was second guessing myself and then by the end of the day my poor husband would come home and I’d have a face like thunder because I’d just be like get me out of this situation I just need a release from being a carer or I was exhausted and the thing is when you’re lonely and you feel down and you don’t know

Jennifer McKenzie (13:19.532)
Yeah.

Carla (13:24.618)
Sometimes you can want to do the opposite. So my friends would say, oh, you’re coming out to date now. It’s almost like you wallow in this kind of self-hatred, I suppose. That’s how I felt at the time. And it can be really hard to recognize if you’re actually going through that postnatal depression as well, can’t it?

Jennifer McKenzie (13:29.065)
Thank you.

Jennifer McKenzie (13:42.317)
Yeah, yes. And then you build up that resentment and then where does that leave sex? Like where does that leave? So how did you feel like when you know when that come to the end of the day where did that leave you know time or energy for or desire even for sex?

Carla (14:01.842)
Yeah, I mean that’s it because you’re exhausted by the end of the day, aren’t you? Um, so I mean I’ve always had a high sex drive like you as well really, um, but after kids I found it quite hard to kind of get the time in there so it sounds a bit funny this but um, we actually had Set days. I know that sounds a bit strange but you know to make sure that you know, you know, you get Really frisky and you get in the room because when you do it you’re like

Jennifer McKenzie (14:05.766)
Yeah.

Jennifer McKenzie (14:27.255)
So you spend your good sex.

Carla (14:29.65)
do that more actually it’s great but it’s just finding that time

Jennifer McKenzie (14:31.897)
Yeah, we push it aside because we think we haven’t got time and it doesn’t become a priority in our relationship and then when we do it it’s like we should do that more often it was great. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carla (14:46.358)
Can we do that tomorrow? And the next day, and the next day. I know, it’s just getting into that mode, isn’t it, of feeling sexy, I suppose. And like, you want to do that. Because a lot of the time, it’s us being critical of ourselves as well. Like, oh, I don’t smell the best, or I don’t look the best, or, you know. Or if not showered, I’ve not had a chance to get in this shower today. And, you know, it’s that kind of thing as well.

Jennifer McKenzie (15:16.283)
I think this is where communication is going to be key.

to keeping that relationship alive and keeping that relationship healthy because if so then if you start not communicating I mean I built up loads of resentment and I ended up leaving my partner because um we had two small children because I said enough’s enough man like he was out drinking all the time and like and not coming home till maybe like a day later or something else like yeah I was like no man that’s just this isn’t what I signed up for.

it’s all right for you to go, you know, lodge it with your friends, turn your phone off, and then like, and you’ve got my car, which has my car, which has like the buggy in it or whatever. And I was like, you know, this has got to change. Like you’re not coming to any family things with me anymore. And I don’t think that we had that.

Looking back now, I don’t think that we had that healthy connection and I built up resentment and you know I don’t think he was communicating his needs and I was trying to communicate mine but I was like well this isn’t this isn’t what you’re not respecting me so I’m done you know after eight years of being together and that broke my heart absolutely broke my heart so then I was just trying to like be strong and deal with that.

whilst then you know looking after my girls and trying to get ahead in my career. So you know trying to do all of the things and it actually led to a huge breakdown if I’m honest. Because I didn’t go and get that help and I’m one of these people that just stay strong, just stay strong, just keep going, just keep going, just keep going and that’s not sustainable for any human being just to keep going and pushing all that trauma and that…

Jennifer McKenzie (17:11.793)
upset down and for me it led to a massive breakdown I tried to take my life. Yeah, yeah, but these are the things that are not really talked about a lot and I kind of want to talk about that because

Carla (17:19.374)
I’m sorry to hear.

Jennifer McKenzie (17:32.453)
I think it’s important for us as parents to speak and to know that we’re not alone. You’ve mentioned loneliness and I’ve mentioned it a little bit where I’d put the kids to bed and I would just sit on like, it was my space back then, this is how long I’m going back.

Carla (17:50.298)
Oh, I remember that.

Jennifer McKenzie (17:51.761)
I was just like, is anybody there? It seems so tragic, but that’s kind of how it felt because my friends were at home with their.

Carla (17:54.734)
Oh no.

Jennifer McKenzie (18:03.409)
families and things like that so it was like I felt kind of a little bit then desperate for connection but when then the kids would go to their dad I would just I would just go out and have a blowout because and just drink a weekend not much wholesome I would just go and get drunk all weekend because I was just pushing down all this emotion

Carla (18:20.88)
Hmm.

Carla (18:27.958)
Yeah, yeah. And even around childbirth as well, that can, you know, I know obviously we’re talking around sex and relationships, but childbirth, the trauma of that can really kind of, you can push that down, can’t you? And that can come out in other ways.

Jennifer McKenzie (18:41.726)
Yeah. Definitely. Like we hold trauma around that. Like even if you look at childhood trauma, then your children could have the trauma from the childbirth as well. Because whatever we’re going through in pregnancy will then kind of go…

pass down the line into the children. So if we’re really stressed and our nervous system is in dysregulation, a lot of the time then that will go into our baby as well. So yeah, when you dig deep into trauma, which is a whole other conversation I think.

Carla (19:23.434)
Oh yeah, it is really. It is. And around the sex side of things then, what would you recommend to build sex and relationships, you know, after children? Because obviously it’s hard to get a babysitter for some people, you know, they don’t have that option. So what kind of things do you think you could do at home that would help build them connections and build them relationships? Because it’s very easy to just scroll on your phone in the evening at night. I mean, I’m guilty.

Jennifer McKenzie (19:50.097)
going to be my first thing. Put your phone away. That’s going to be my first tip. Number one, 100%

Carla (19:53.322)
Yes. Yeah. So, I’m going to go ahead and turn it over to you.

Jennifer McKenzie (19:57.241)
turn your phones off and put them somewhere else. So if you think about sex and intimacy, so there and connection, so I’m big on working with people to connect with themselves, others and nature. So the first pillar of work with the three pillars of connection, those three. So the first is connection to yourself. Like how do you feel about yourself? Connect to yourself in your own body. I would say like to women after childbirth,

can have some time where you can do like a self massage, you can do your facial, you can just touch yourself and like reconnect with your body, like look at your vulva, your in the mirror, like reconnect with that part of your body and your stomach and your

Jennifer McKenzie (20:56.613)
because we can think, oh God, it looks different, or especially if we’ve had tears or stitches and things like that, we’re gonna think that we’re not attractive anymore, or what if my partner looks at it and thinks, oh, it’s not attractive anymore? But knowing that that’s really normal, and we all go through this at some point in our lives. So reconnecting and looking at your body from a different way,

and thankful for what you have and it just changes your perspective over then your connection to self. Then the connection then with your partner is phones away. Make some time where you’re gonna speak

It doesn’t necessarily just have to be about penetration and sex, like intercourse. It can be you’ve got some time together where you’re sitting opposite each other, so you’ve got eye contact, so you’ve got that vulnerability and it’s like, you know, how are you feeling? Like asking each other those deep questions and connecting that way. That is going to make the sex better.

and that’s gonna make the sex… Because if you think about it, sometimes we just rush, so we’re like, oh, we’ll just have a quickie, sort of like we’re here and there, but actually taking that time to connect. Maybe like cook each other a nice meal, do some massage, as well, I would suggest, so things that aren’t just intercourse.

I watched a really good podcast actually that said men’s most favourable sexual act is intercourse and women’s least favourite act is intercourse. Is penetration. So when we think of sex and being intimate there’s so many other things that we can do to connect to each other and have pleasure with each other. So touching each other, massaging each other.

Carla (22:47.154)
No! Yeah.

Jennifer McKenzie (23:04.909)
like kissing, hugging, connecting through sitting opposite each other. I love that because that just builds so much connection and intimacy between two people.

Jennifer McKenzie (23:19.921)
Yeah, like asking each other what do you like? Maybe trying something a little bit different as well to keep it alive. Like, you know, what is your, what would you like? What do you want? What would you like? Do we ever ask each other those questions? Or do we just assume and just kind of do the same thing, same thing over and over again? Which can then become boring and can just become like another.

Carla (23:30.827)
Yeah.

Jennifer McKenzie (23:45.765)
repetitive behaviour that we do and then down the line our relationships become like mechanical rather than you know fun and like pleasurable right?

Carla (24:00.01)
Yeah, yeah, that’s some great advice there. Yeah, I really like that because they’re all things that you can do at home and you can do once the kids are in bed as well. So that’s really useful.

Jennifer McKenzie (24:13.498)
Yeah, get a lock on your door. If they’re a bit older, if they’re a bit older, have a boundary with them. Knock on, knock on mommy and daddy’s door or mom and mums or dad and dads, you know, parents and knock on the door and have that lock on there so that if you are kind of mid act, like they’re not going to be they’re not going to be like, what are you doing? Which has happened to me.

Carla (24:15.591)
Yes you need that

Carla (24:40.642)
Especially if, yeah, especially if you’re dressed up, you know, something like that.

Jennifer McKenzie (24:45.761)
You know, you’re full on kink and like, covered in oil of your losing whatever. It’s like, yeah, yeah. So you know, and there’s things like, but also like for the male, the dads out there, the fathers, the male parents, it’s like.

Carla (24:48.434)
Yes! Oh god.

What are you doing, Mummy? It’s like, well, how do I explain this one? Ha ha ha! Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer McKenzie (25:10.909)
then the stress and the pressure sometimes gets too much and like sometimes they can’t get an erection and things. So it’s… And they’re thinking and sometimes they think, oh my god, the child’s gonna come in. So they’re not in the headspace. So they’re stressing. And then once you’re stressed like that and you’re thinking about your to-do list, you’re not gonna be in the moment. You’re not gonna be in… fully in the moment. So that’s why I say like, you know, have that lock on the door.

It’s not being horrible and locking the kids out or locking them in their rooms or whatever. It’s actually helping you from a really embarrassing moment that could happen. And also giving you that little bit of security to say, this is our room and this is our safe space now and this is our space as two adults to explore and enjoy each other.

Carla (25:48.903)
Yeah, yes.

Carla (26:03.938)
like that. Yeah, that’s such a good idea. It really is. Definitely with the locks. Yeah, I can understand that. So, Jennifer, would you mind just sharing a little bit more about what you do and how you can help our listeners today and how they can find you?

Jennifer McKenzie (26:20.369)
Yeah, of course. So I have a company called Luna Spirit Wellbeing and there I’m based in Bedfordshire. So I run workshops and retreats for all genders. I’m LGBTQ, so I welcome in the LGBTQIA plus community here. We’re all welcome to come as you are, all abilities. And I run…

workshops. It’s quite deep work. You probably guessed from the kind of how I talk. And it’s all about connection and self discovery. And so we work with the three pillars of connection, connection to self, connection to others in collective healing, and also connection to nature. So a lot of the stuff that we do, it works outside in like with fire ceremonies, I’ve got the cold water therapy.

and I’ve got a lovely space outside where we meditate and stuff outside. So I work with breathwork. So I’m a somatic coach and a holistic. Yeah, yeah. Yes, this is this is quite important, actually, because we hear this buzzword now around, don’t we, all the time. So somatics, like really good question. So if you think of the word soma, it means body. And when it’s a when we when we’re working

Carla (27:28.578)
Can you explain somatic coach for us?

Carla (27:36.862)
Yeah.

Jennifer McKenzie (27:49.097)
counseling or something like that. We’re working with the conscious mind. We’re working with and sometimes the subconscious but we’re working with up here and we’re working with how we think and how we feel to change the mindset. So which is what I do as well, but then we really need to drop that into the body. We really need to get into how we’re feeling. We need to discharge the emotions and the trauma from the body. So working with the nervous system.

and working with movement and body work as well, so an energy healing. So if you think it’s a whole person experience, it is what I do. And the like the, oh, it’s amazing. I love it. I’m obsessed with it. It’s like my passion subject. And I could talk about it till the cows come home. And so I’m going to give you an example. An example.

Carla (28:31.458)
Wow, it sounds so good.

Carla (28:41.006)
Yeah, it sounds so good.

Jennifer McKenzie (28:47.053)
working with the body. So if you think of your emotions and your thoughts and feelings, if and what I said earlier about me, I just pushed all that down into my body. Yeah. And if we if we go around doing this, we’ve got unresolved trauma, we’ve got unresolved emotions that we just we just push aside through whether we have to or whether we don’t want to go there. All of that’s got to go somewhere that hasn’t been addressed. It hasn’t been discharged from the body.

So then we get what is called dis-ease. So we get pain and trauma, we get pain and illness in the body. So I’ve been, we’ll give you an example, I’ve been working with somebody with pain in their hip. So they don’t know, they’ve not had an accident, it’s not muscular skeletal, it’s this pain and this stiffness, tightness in their hip. So we’re working through body work. And so I did the energy healing there and I felt like in my hand like,

like that pop and you felt the pop, the energy moving through the body and then she cried. And she was like well why? I was like you don’t need to know why, all you need to know is that emotion has been released from your body because as humans we just want to logic and make sense of everything and sometimes we need to step into the unknown and be like it’s a release, I’ve released something and that’s how I work.

Carla (30:15.03)
Wow, that sounds amazing.

Jennifer McKenzie (30:17.297)
Hmm, I really would, you know, any people listening, like, find someone that’s close to you, to where you live. Personally, I prefer to do this work in person, but you can do stuff online. And it works better in person, I believe, with human connection. Yeah. So come to me or find someone that is like near to you that does that sort of work. So energetic and…

Carla (30:36.386)
Yeah.

Jennifer McKenzie (30:45.713)
Somatic and subconsciously where it works on like all those levels. It’s life

Carla (30:49.91)
That’s great. Yeah, it sounds it. We have got a wellness category in our directory, so there may well be someone local to you or whereabouts are you Jennifer?

Jennifer McKenzie (31:01.501)
So I’m Bedfordshire, but I have people come from all over the UK to visit me for that reason. Yeah, so I have people come up for the day from Surrey, Manchester, Leicester. Where else have they come from? So I’ve got a lady that wants to come over from America, like when she comes to visit the UK. So, you know, it’s worth it. So.

Carla (31:08.178)
Oh, great.

Carla (31:22.034)
Oh well, take a trip and see Jennifer then.

Jennifer McKenzie (31:29.397)
I have like half day stuff and then full day stuff available and then you know if you need somewhere to stay then just let me know and I can point you in the right direction.

Carla (31:40.698)
sounds great well Jennifer thank you so much for chatting to us today and talking about this subject it’s been really good really interesting and I love the work you’re doing so we’ll share all Jennifer’s links underneath this podcast and then you can just click follow her give her a follow and also connect with her if you know you want to work with her so thank you so much thank you

Jennifer McKenzie (32:03.006)
Thanks for having me. It’s been an enlightening conversation actually.

Carla (32:06.642)
Oh, it really has. Thank you.

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